AOL File Library: 9,300 to 9,399/9300.zip/AOLDLs/Court TV Trial Documents/Susan Smith_ Findley Testimony/SMITH4.txt

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MR. POPE: If it please the court, Your Honor,
the State would call Tom Findlay to the stand.
TOM FINDLAY, having been first duly sworn,
testified as follows:

DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. POPE:

Q  Mr. Findlay, if you would, state your name and
occupation to the jury, please?

A   My name is Tom Findlay, and I'm a graphic
designer.

Q  Mr. Findlay, could you tell the jury a little
bit about your educational background, where you
went to school ?

A   Yes, I grew up in Birmingham, Alabama, a small
city right outside of Birmingham, Mt. Brook. I
completed high school there. And then I went four
years to Auburn University in Auburn, Alabama.

Q  I'm going to take you back now to October and
November of 1994. Where were you employed then?

A   I'm sorry?

Q  Where were you employed back in October and
November of 1994?

A   At Conso Products Company.

Q  That's here in Union?

A   Yes, sir.

Q  Okay. And where did you live?

A   I rented an apartment from my father on his
grounds.

Q  Okay. Is that here in Union also?

A   Yes, sir.

Q  And your father -- who is your father?

A   Cary Findlay.

Q  What relation is he to Conso?

A   He is the owner.

Q  And do you know the defendant Susan Smith?

A   Yes, I do.

Q  Okay. Could you explain to the jury when you
first met her and how you came to know her?

A   Susan and I met, it was the end of '93,
November, December, somewhere in there, and that's
when we first met in the parking lot at Conso.

Q  Can you relate to the jury what the subject of
that conversation was or who instigated the
conversation?

A   Sure. Well, it was mutual. We were walking by
each other in the parking lot and we just stopped.
I introduced myself to her and she introduced
herself to me. And it was just, you know, small
talk, you know, friendship, kind of getting to know
how are you doing, kind of thing.

Q  Okay. Now, you said this was November of '93,

so this is roughly a year prior to the --

A   November, December, yes, sir, of '93, that's
correct.

Q  Okay. And what was your understanding of her
marital status at that time?

A   I thought she was separated.

Q  And did y'all begin any type of relationship at
that particular time, back in November, December of
'93?

A   No. I mean, we may have talked on the phone
once or twice.

Q  Okay. So back in November, December of '93,
you basically had just met and becoming friends?

A   Yes.

Q  Had you ever met Susan Smith's children,
Michael and Alex?

A   At that time?

Q  Yes, sir.

A   No, sir.

Q  In fact, at all how many times have you seen
those children?

A   Twice.

Q  Okay. Has Ms. Smith ever made statements to
you during your relationship about wishing to have
waited to have children, or anything of that nature?

A   Yes.

Q  Could you relate that to the jury, please?

A   Well, just that sometimes she -- she did not go
to college right after high school. And sometimes,
you know, she regretted that did she didn't further
her education and that she hadn't waited to have a
family.

Q  You say up until roughly Christmas of '93.
That was again the year prior to the incident where
Michael and Alex. How would you categorize your
relationship up until Christmas of '93?

A   Just a friendship, a very new friendship, you
know. Not much contact. Maybe a few phone calls,
but, you know, we were just getting to know each
other.

Q  She worked there at Conso also?

A   Yes, sir.

Q  Did you see her every single day?

A   No, sir.

Q  Did you work in the same section she worked in?

A   No, sir.

Q  Now, after Christmas of '93, going now into
4, in January of '94?

A   Yes, sir.

Q  January through March, did your relationship

with her change at that time?

A   Yes, sir. It developed. We talked on the
phone a good bit and had became intimate.

Q  And do you have an estimate for the jury of in
about the first three months of '94 how many times
do you think that you saw her?

A   Three or four.

Q  When I say saw her, again I mean saw her like
in a dating time relationship or a spending-time
relationship?

A   Three, four.

Q  Okay. At some point by March did that
relationship came to an end?

A   Yes, sir.

Q  And was that when you found out something
different about her marital status?

A   Yes, sir.

Q  Okay. And what was that?

A   That -- well, David -- David caught us talking
on the telephone and --

Q  David, being David Smith?

A   I'm sorry, David Smith.

Q  Right.

A   He was in her home hiding. And she called me
and we talked. And at some point in the
conversation he sprung out of the closet, or
wherever he was hiding from, and got on the phone
and told me not to -- not to talk with Susan any
more.

Q  He was still married to her at that time?

A   I suppose so, yes, sir.

Q  I mean, so basically you are on the phone
talking to her and he gets on the phone and tells
you ----

A   He gets on the phone and tells me "you better
stop talking to my wife you son-of-a-bitch. I'm
going to get you."

Q  And so at that time in March you ended the
relationship, is that correct?

A   March, April. I'm not sure of the exact date,
but it was in that area, yes.

Q  Okay. Was there some time later in 1994 that
the relationship started back up?

A   Yes, sir.

Q  And could you relate to the jury when that was?

A   It was in late September, early October.

Q  Okay. And how was it in September or October
of '94, how did the relationship end up starting
back up?

A   Well, I saw her some at the office and she
indicated to me that she was taking David Smith to
court, that she had gained -- excuse me, gained the
evidence that she needed to divorce David on
adultery. She had -- or she was having a private
investigator, or had, I'm not sure, at that time,
and she was filing for divorce based on the grounds
of adultery.

Q  Then ultimately, as far as the divorce
situation, I think you ended up being drawn into
that too, is that correct?

A   What do you mean?

Q  You ended being drawn into the whole divorce
proceedings --

A   Yes, sir.

Q  -- between David and Susan?

A   Yes, sir.

Q  And I believe ultimately they charged her with
adultery as far as you too, is that correct?

A   That is correct.

MR. BRUCK: Objection, relevancy and on
leading.

THE COURT: Sustained. Don't lead your
witness.

MR. POPE: Yes, sir.

MR. BRUCK: And on relevancy as well, Your

Honor.

THE COURT: Counsel, do you wish to be heard
with regard to relevance?

MR. POPE: No, sir, Your Honor, I'll withdraw
the question.

THE COURT: Very well.

MR. BRUCK: Move to strike.

THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen of the jury,
please disregard the last question and the last
answer to the witness.
Counsel, you may proceed.

Q  Mr. Findlay, up until October of '94, you
basically just had a three month relationship with
Ms. Smith at the beginning of the year, is that
correct?

A   Yes.

Q  And then the relationship you stated started
back in October, after you determined that she was
getting separated or divorced?

A   Yes, sir.

Q  Mr. Findlay, I want to take you now to the
weekend of October 15th, which is a Saturday, the 15th.

A   Yes, sir.

Q  And without getting into great detail, did you

see Susan Smith that evening?

A   Yes, sir. That evening, yes, sir.

Q  And did you have an opportunity to spend time
with her and some of your friends at your house or
your parents house?

A   Yes, sir.

Q  Then after that evening, just generally, can
you relate to the jury on October- the 15th what
occurred? All the friends came over and got in the
hot tub is that correct?

A   Yes, sir.

MR. BRUCK: Your Honor --

THE COURT: Counsel, don't lead your witness.

MR. POPE: Yes, sir.

MR. BRUCK: I think we have a matter of law to
take up at this time.

THE COURT: All right. Ladies and gentlemen of
the jury, I'm going to ask y'all if you would please
to go to the jury room. Please don't discuss this
case. I will come back with you just as shortly as
we can.
(The following takes place outside the presence
of the jury panel)

THE COURT: Yes, sir, Mr. Bruck, I will be
happy to hear from You.

MR. BRUCK: It is our information that the
court -- that the State at this time proposes to go
into an alleged incident of misconduct of a sexual
nature involving Ms. Smith in connection with a hot
tub party that occurred at Mr. Findlay's home.
We had made -- the simplest thing is maybe just
to hear the evidence outside the court's presence --
outside the jury's presence. It's our position that
this information is irrelevant to any issue in the
case and is highly prejudicial and should not be
admitted.

THE COURT: Let me go ahead and hear what it
is, counsel.

MR. POPE: If it please the court, Your Honor,
I realize I was leading Mr. Findlay some, but it was
for the very purpose of not getting into this
particular hot tub incident. I -just wanted enough
to designate when this time was. I don't intend to
get into any specifics of any interaction from
anybody at the hot tub incident. I'm just trying to
get a date for the chronology. And I would just say
to Mr. Findlay I didn't intend to go any further
into anything.

THE COURT: Very well then. You may not have
an issue.

MR. BRUCK: Well, maybe we should hear it. I
don't know. It would be simple enough to --

THE COURT: I understood it's simply the
question was, was there a --

MR. POPE: Did you have friends over at the hot
tub on the 15th.

THE COURT: And that's the extent of what you
intend to go into?

MR. POPE: And then I was going to get my
little sticker and put it on the calendar, Your
Honor. But other than that, that: would be it.

MR. BRUCK: If that is the extent of the
State's evidence. I want to say that since there
has been considerable interest in this hot tub
party, that I don't want to make too much of it, the
misconduct that has been alleged, is pretty mild
compared to what I have read in the papers. But
nevertheless we think it's prejudicial, and I would
be glad the State has no mention of going into it.

THE COURT: Good enough. Before the jury comes
back out, counsel, let's see if there is some place
that we can put this where the jury can get in and
out and at the same time I can see the jury.

MR. POPE: Your Honor, I can move it back over
here, and we --

THE COURT: If we could move it back this way a
little bit further, about like that. That's good
right there. And then I think the jury can get
around that.

MR. POPE: It's possible I would rather leave
it up.

THE COURT: We will try it up there and see how
it works. That might be better the way sheriff had
it, but we will try it. If the legs adjust in
height on the tripod, you put the back leg and put
it on this step and could move it back this way. Do
you see what I'm saying?

MR. POPE: Yes.

THE COURT: Let's try that.
Now I can see the jury and they can get
door and everybody can see it.

THE COURT: Okay. Yes, ma'am.

MR. BRUCK: If it please the court, the
sticker.

THE COURT: Let's hold -- hold the jury outside
for me just one moment, please.
Yes, sir?

MR. BRUCK: If it please the court, the
which Mr. Pope has just handed me after making
representations which he did to the court reads hot
sticker tub party.

MR. POPE: If it please the court, Your Honor,
that's exactly the words Mr. Bruck just used in
describing it when he said this hot tub party.

THE COURT: Well, I don't want to get bogged
down. You don't care whether it's called party or --

MR. POPE: I don't care if it says party. It
just says hot tub. That would be enough for the
jury to know.

THE COURT: Let's just mark out the word party.

MR. BRUCK: Why don't we -- it's not the party.
It's the hot tub problem, judge. I would be quite
satisfied with the word party. The hot tub has been
in more publicity, more newspaper stories, most of
which have been read by this jury.

THE COURT: Is the hot tub just a party?

MR. POPE: He's already testified as to the hot
tub. That just is distinguishing versus -- because
there are various times when friends were together
for various conversations. He's said that's when
they went over to get in the hot tub. I'm not
making any more of it than it is or anything that
occurred. It's just --

THE COURT: Well, perhaps I don't understand
the significance of the meeting that night. Can you

** No page found **

elaborate a little bit on that?

MR. POPE: Yes, sir. I think that begins a
series of events as far as from Mr. Findlay's
standpoint of discussions he had with Susan Smith
and various correspondence that went back and forth.
And it just provides the basis of -- a touchstone or

A   beginning for when all this other information
would come out.

THE COURT: Well, let's scratch out hot tub.
I'm not going to preclude you from using that in
your discussions because that was the testimony, but
that way it won't highlight it.

MR. POPE: Your Honor, in that case I just as
well put friends at Findlay residence, because -- I
mean, it's not really a party. Even the friends
just went over to the house.

THE COURT: Well, that's fine.

MR. BRUCK: That's fine. Thank you.

MR. POPE: Your Honor, I'll have one prepared
that says friends at Findlay residence. Is that --

THE COURT: Showing whatever you want to do in
that regard, that's fine.
All right, bring us the jury.
(The following takes place in the presence of
the jury panel)

THE COURT: All right, sir, you may continue,
counselor.

Q  If it please the court, Your Honor, Mr.
Findlay, when the jury left, I was asking you on
October 15th of 1994 you had some friends coming
over to your residence or your father's residence on
that evening, including Ms. Smith, is that correct?

A   Correct.

MR. POPE: Okay. If it please the court, Your
Honor, I would also prepare a sticker. I know the
jury gets tired of me being back and forth with the
stickers, but I'll have a sticker for October the 15th.

THE COURT: That's without objection, as I
understand it?

MR. BRUCK: Without objection.

THE COURT: Very well.

Q  Mr. Findlay, then on October the 16th, what, if
anything -- did you have a conversation with Ms.
Smith on the 16th?

A   Yes.

Q  Can you relate to the jury the substance of
that conversation?

A   Not much. I mean, we -- we talked a little bit
about the night before. And during that conversation she related to me that technically she
was not separated, that she was not a divorced
woman.

Q  And that would have been on the 16th?

A   On the 16th. On the 16th. But -- about the
separation. I mean, she just indicated to me that
she was not separated at that point.

Q  Okay.

MR. POPE: If it please the court, I'll be
adding phone conversations of Tom Findlay and Ms.
Susan Smith on the 16th.
That would be without objection?

MR. BRUCK: That's correct.

THE COURT: All right, sir, you may add that.

Q  Mr. Findlay, on the 16th did you have a
discussion with Ms. Smith after she related that
information to you as far as continuing your
relationship of the ongoing nature of your
relationship?

A   Well, we agreed that the intimate part of our
relationship should be postponed until
divorced.

Q  Now, then the next day, the 17th. On the 17th,
that would have been a workday, is that correct?

A   Yes, sir.

she was

Q  And during the day of the 17th, did you receive

A   letter from Ms. Smith basically concerning the
weekend and your conversation of that Sunday?

A   Yes, sir.
(States Exhibit 13 marked for identification)

Q  I'll show you what's been marked State's
Exhibit No. 13 and ask you if you can look and see
if you can identify that?

A   Yes, sir, this is it.

Q  And that's the letter that you received on
October 17th?

A   Yes.

Q  The Monday?

A   Yes.

MR. BRUCK: Except for misspelling of Mr.
Findlay's name, I have no objection.

Q      Mr. Findlay, this is in fact the letter?

A       Yes.

Q      Okay.

MR. BRUCK: No objection.

THE COURT: All right. Now,
been marked as State's --

the letter?

that has already

MR. POPE: 13.

THE COURT: 13. And you are offering that in
evidence at this time?

MR. POPE: Yes, sir.

THE COURT: In evidence without objection.

Q  Mr. Findlay, on the night of October the 17th,
after receiving that

letter, did you have an
opportunity to write a letter to Susan Smith?

A   Yes, sir.

Q  And did you in fact deliver that letter to her
on the next date October 18th?

A   Yes, sir.
(State's Exhibit 14 marked for identification)

Q  Let me show you what's been marked as State's
Exhibit 14 ask if you could identify that?

A   This is it.

Q  Okay.

MR. BRUCK: Your Honor, we have no objection to
this exhibit, except that noticed with the last
sticker, that's fine.

THE COURT: Very well. Then State's 14 into
evidence without objection. And you may add that to
your exhibit, counselor.

Q  Mr. Findlay, if you would, would you spell your
name?

A   F-i-n-d-l-a-y.

Q  I guess it's been massacred more than once in
this case, is that right?

A   I guess that's fair to say.

MR. POPE: Your Honor, we do have
F-i-n-d-l-e-y, on a number of situations, so at the
appropriate time we would correct that error.

THE COURT: Very well then.

MR. POPE: State's Exhibit 14 would be in
evidence?

THE COURT: Yes, sir.

MR. POPE: If it please the court, Your Honor,
State's Exhibit

, which is the letter from Susan
Smith to Tom Findlay on Monday, the 17th, I would
request that I publish that to the jury at this
time.

THE COURT: Yes, sir, you may publish it.

Q  This was a written letter from Susan to you,

MR. Findlay?

A   Yes.
It says "Dear Tom, just a note to say thank you
for everything. I could never express in words how
much you mean to me. I will always treasure our
friendship and all of the many wonderful memories we
have had.
"I want you to know that I have never felt with
anyone, the way I feel when I'm with you. I have
never felt so needed. You are a very special person
and that is part of why making love to you is so
wonderful.
"I know how you feel about our relationship and
I respect that. I'm appreciative of your honesty
with me. I do want us to be friends forever and
I'll never let anything happen that would change
that.
"I do hope that we will be able to date some
and be together again some day, but if we never made
love again, my feelings for you would not change
because having you as my friend is worth more than
sex could ever be worth.
"Once again, I'm sorry for that Saturday night
and would take it back i n a heartbeat if I could. I
really wanted to be with you and hated that I
wasn't.
"Thank you for being there for me through all
the rough times. You are a true friend. I want you
to know that I will always love and care for you for
the rest of my life. You are the best friend anyone
could ever have.
"Well, I hope I said everything right. The
bottom line is I'm glad we are friends and if that
is all we can be, then we will just have to do a
hell of a job being that. Who knows what the future
holds for our relationship. I'm just going to live
one day at a time.
"One more thing before I go, please don't ever
hesitate to call me if you ever need anything." And
that's underlined. "I will always be here for you.
Friends forever Susan."
Your Honor, at this time I would also request
to publish State's Exhibit 14, which is the letter
from Mr. Findlay, dated the 17th on the letter and
delivered on the 18th.

THE COURT: You may publish the letter.

MR. POPE: "October 17th, 1994.
"Dear Susan, I hope you don't mind, but I think
clearer when I am typing, so this letter is being
written on my computer.
"This is a difficult letter for me to write
because I know how much you think of me. And I want
you to know that I am flattered that you have such a
high opinion of me. Susan, I value our friendship
very much. You are one of the few people on this
earth that I feel I can tell anything. You are
intelligent, beautiful, sensitive, understanding,
and possess many other wonderful qualities that I
and many other men appreciate. You will, without a
doubt, make some lucky man a great wife. But
unfortunately, it won't be me.
"Even though you think we have much in common,
we are vastly different. We have been raised in two
totally different environments, and therefore, think
totally different. That's not to say that I was
raised better than you or vice versa, it just means
that we come from two different backgrounds.
"When I started dating Laura, I knew our
backgrounds were going to be a problem. Right
before I graduated from Auburn University in 1990, I
broke up with a girl Allison that I had been dating
for over two years. I loved Allison very much and
we were very compatible. Unfortunately, we wanted
different things out of life. She wanted to get
married and have children before the age of
twenty-eight, and I did not. This conflict spurred
our breakup, but we have remained friends through
the years. After Allison, I was very hurt. I
decided not to fall for anyone again until I was
ready to make a long commitment.
"For my first two years in Union, I dated very
little. In fact, I can count the number of dates I
had on one hand. But then Laura came along. We met
at Conso, and I fell for her like a ton of bricks.
Things were great at first and remained good for a
long time, but I knew deep in my heart that she was
not the one for me. People tell me that when you
find the person that you will want to spend the rest
of your life with you will know it. Well, even
though I fell in love with Laura, I had my doubts
about a long and lasting commitment, but I never
said anything, and I eventually hurt her very, very
deeply. I won't do that again.
"Susan, I can really fall for you. You have so
many endearing qualities about you, and I think that
you are a terrific person. But like I have told you
before, there are some things about you that aren't
suited for me, and yes, I am speaking about your
children. I'm sure that your kids are good kids,
but it really wouldn't matter how good they may be.
The fact is, I just don't want children. These
feelings may change one day, but I doubt it. With
all of the crazy, mixed-up things that take place in
this world today, I just don't have the desire to
bring another life into it. And I don't want to be
responsible for anyone else's children, either. But
I am very thankful that there are people like you
who are not so selfish as I am, and you don't mind
bearing the responsibility of children. If everyone
thought the way I do, our species would eventually
become extinct.
"But our differences go far beyond the children
issue. We are just two totally different people,
and eventually, those differences would cause us to
break up. Because I know myself so well, I am sure
of this. But don't be discouraged. There is
someone out there for you. In fact, it's probably
someone that you may not know at this time or that
you may know, but would never expect. Either way,
before you settle down with anyone again, there is
something you need to do. Susan, because You got
pregnant and married at such an early age, you
missed out on much of your youth. I mean, one
minute you were a kid, and the next minute you were
having kids. Because I come from a place where
everyone had the desire and money to go to college,
having the responsibility of children at such a
young age is beyond my comprehension. Anyhow, my
advice to you is to wait and be very choosy about
your next relationship. I can see this may be
difficult for you because you are a bit boy crazy,
but as the proverb states good things come to those
who wait. I am not saying you shouldn't go out and
have a good time. In fact, I think you should do
just that. Have a good time and capture some of
that youth that you missed out on. But just don't
get seriously involved with anyone until you have
done the things in life that you want to do, first.
Then the rest of will fall in place.
"Susan, I am not mad at you about what happened
this weekend. Actually, I'm very thankful. As I
told you, I was starting to let my heart warm up to
the idea of us going out as more than just friends.
But seeing you kiss another man put things back into
perspective. I remembered how I hurt Laura, and I
won't let that happen again and therefore, I can't
let myself get close to you. We will always be
friends, but our relationship will never go beyond
that of friendship. And as for your relationship
with B. Brown, of course you have to make your own
decisions in life, but remember you have to live
with the consequences also. Everyone is held
accountable for their actions, and I would hate for
people to perceive you as an unreputable person. If
you want to catch a nice guy like me one day, you
have to act like a nice girl. And you know, nice
girls don't sleep with married men. Besides, I want
you to feel good about yourself, and I am afraid
that if you sleep is B. Brown or any other married
man for that matter, you will lose your self
respect. I know I did when we were messing around
earlier this year. So please, think about your
actions before you do anything you will regret. I
care for you, but also care for Susan Brown, and I
would hate to see anyone get hurt. Susan may say
that she wouldn't care if her husband had an affair,
but you and I know that is not true.
"Anyhow, as I have already told you, you are a
very special person. And don't let anyone tell you
or make you feel any different. I see so much
potential in you, but only you can make it happen.
Don't settle for mediocre in life, go for it all and
only settle for the best. I do. I haven't told you
this, but I am extremely proud of you for going to
school. I am a firm believer in higher education,
and once you obtain a degree from college, there is
no stopping you. And don't let these idiot boys
from Union make you feel like you are not capable or
slow you down. After you graduate, you will be able
to go anywhere you want in this world. And if you
ever wanted to get a job in Charlotte, my father is
the right person to know. He and Koni know everyone
who is anyone in the business world in Charlotte.
And if I can ever help you with anything, don't
hesitate to ask.


"Well, this letter must come to an end. It is
:50 p.m. and I am getting very sleepy. But I
wanted to write you this letter because you are the
one who is always making the effort for me, and I
wanted to return the friendship. I've appreciated
it when you have dropped me nice little notes, or
cards, or the present at Christmas, and it is about
time that I start putting a little effort into our
friendship. Which reminds me, I thought long and
hard about getting you something for your birthday,
but I decided not to because I wasn't sure what you
might think. Now I am sorry I didn't get you
anything, so you can expect something from me at
Christmas. But do not buy me anything for
Christmas. All I want from you is a nice, sweet
card. I'll cherish that more than any store brought
present.
"Again, you will always have my friendship.
And your friendship is one that I will always look
upon with sincere affection.
"Tom. P.S. It's late, so please don't count
off for spelling or grammar."

Q  Mr. Findlay, the last letter I read is the one
that you wrote?

A   Yes, sir.

Q  At some point during the investigation law
enforcement asked you to provide a copy of that
letter to them?

A   Yes, sir.

Q  And did you, in fact, provide them a copy?

A   Yes, sir.

Q  And was the copy that you provided exactly the
same as the letter that I just read?

A   No, sir.

Q  Okay. Would you explain to the jury what the
difference was and why?

A   I took out the paragraph about the hot tub
because there were peoples names mentioned and I
didn't want anyone to get hurt or embarrassed.

Q  Were you trying to deceive law enforcement when
you did it?

A   No, sir.

Q  Mr. Findlay, do you recall after these letters
passed when you next talked to Ms. Smith?

A   Well, after I gave her the letter, sometime
after that she called me in my office and said that
the letter that I gave her was one of the sweetest
letters she had gotten and she appreciated it.

Q  So there was no animosity or anything at that
point?

A   No, sir.

Q  Okay. Did you have an opportunity then on that
weekend, on Sunday, the 23rd, to have a conversation
with Ms. Smith again?

A   Yes, sir.

Q  And could you relate to the jury what that
entailed?

A   Well, I had just returned from a trip, and
Susan called me. She was very upset. She said that
David -- she felt like David was having her
followed. David knew things that she couldn't
figure out how he -- how he found out. And she was
very scared. She was very upset. She said that
David had knew things that he was going to make
public that were going to embarrass some people,
that would hurt some people, and she was just very
concerned about that. She felt like David was
following her and had her phone tapped. She just
was very scared.

Q  And she was relating this -- this was over the
telephone, is that correct?

A   Yes.

Q  Now, that would have been on Sunday when you
had that telephone conversation?

A   Yes.

n

Q  Did you have the opportunity to see her on
Monday, the 24th?

A   Yes, sir.

Q  And where did you see her?

A   I might have seen her at the -- at the office,
but I saw her after -- after work.

Q  At first at the office -- you said she was
upset or scared that Sunday?

A   Yes, sir. She was still very concerned about
David's threats.

Q  Okay. Then what about the Monday at the
office? Did she indicate --

A   That's -- I mean, she just confirmed that on
Monday, that she was still very concerned about
David.

Q  She related that to you?

A   Yes, sir.

Q  And then you say that you saw her that evening?

A   Yes, sir.

Q  Is that correct?

A   Yes.

Q  And where did you see her that evening?

A   I met a group of friends. We all went up to a
bar called Hickory Nuts. It's a restaurant bar.
And so we met up there, a group of friends and

Susan was one of those friends who was included.

Q  Now, that would have been on the Monday
evening, the 24th, would have been the night when
you met at Hickory Nuts, is that correct?

A   Yes.

MR. POPE: Your Honor, hopefully I have got
Hickory Nuts spelled right,
it on the board.

THE COURT: Yes. sir.

but I would move to put

Q  Mr. Findlay, could you explain to the jury a
little bit about that Monday night at Hickory Nuts?
Again, this would be Monday, the 24th, the night
before

A   Yes.

Q  -- Michael and Alex were killed?

A   Yes, sir.

Q  Okay.

A   Well, the friends that I worked with in the
marketing department, we liked to watch a TV show
called Melrose Place that came on Monday nights. So
we decided to meet at Hickory Nuts and watch the
show there, and just snack, or have a beer or
whatever. and we included Susan.

Q  Okay. Do you recall who was there? You and
Susan and --

A   Let's see, Susan Smith, of course. Jennifer
Johnson, Sherry Simmons, Pam O'Shields, Susan Brown,
myself. That may be it. I can't remember.

Q  Did anything unusual happen that night as far
as you having any arguments or anything?

A   No, sir. No, sir.

Q  What was Susan Smith's demeanor that night when
all of you were watching Melrose Place?

A   Well, she -- she seemed okay. I mean, she was
part of the group. We talked and joked and cut up,
and everybody had a beer or two. You know,
it was just normal.

Q  So it was like many other nights when you seen
Melrose -- I mean, nothing unusual took place? Is
that what you are telling us?

she --

A   Nothing unusual, correct.

Q  Mr. Findlay, when you parted company after
Melrose Place was over and everyone went their
separate ways --

A   Yes, sir.

Q  -- did you have any ill words or anything with
Ms. Smith, anything of that nature?

A   No, sir.

Q  Now, I'll draw your attention now to Tuesday,
October 25th?

A   Yes, sir.

Q  And could you describe -- that was another work
day there at Conso. is that correct?

A   Yes, sir.

Q  Could you describe to the jury the first time
that you saw Susan Smith on that day?

A   The first time I saw Susan on that Tuesday was
at lunch. We -- a group of us went to lunch
together, and she was included.

Q  And, again, that was on the same day that
Michael and Alex were killed, on the 25th, is that
correct?

A   Yes, sir.

Q  Okay. And could you relate what the situation
was at lunch as far as who was there and what the
interaction was?

A   We had a co-worker in from our manufacturing
facility in England, and so we were taking him to
lunch. There was a group of just mainly marketing
people. Just a regular lunch.

Q  Could you relate to the jury what -- were did
Susan Smith sit in proximity to you, do you recall?

A   She sat next to me.

Q  Okay. Do you recall her demeanor? You know,
anything unusual?

A   No, no. I mean -- no, she was okay. I mean,
she didn't say that much. She really didn't say
much.

Q  Was she distressed in any way?

A   I don't know. At that point we had not talked.

Q  I guess it was -- this lunch was no different
than any other normal lunch, business lunches that
you had? That's what I'm asking.

A   No more than any other business lunches?

Q  My understanding is that you and different
people at Conso go to lunch together?

A   No, that was typical.

Q  Okay.

A   Yes.

Q  Now, sometime after lunch, Mr. Findlay, did
there come a time that you had a conversation with
Ms. Smith?

A   Yes, sir.

Q  And do you recall approximately what time that
was?

A   Around 2:30.

Q  And can you relate to the jury how that took
place and what that included?

A   Susan called me in my office. She had called
me on the phone and asked me if I would step out to

the front lawn where we had picnic tables, to talk.

And, of course, I said yes. And so I met her out on
the front lawn.

Q  Okay. And so when she asked you to come and
you met out in the front of Conso, what -- can you
relate to the jury what, if any, conversation --

A   I'm sorry.

Q  Could you relate to the jury -- when you met on
the picnic tables in front of Conso there at around
:30, what, if any, conversation you had?

A   Well, Susan was very upset still because David
was making threats. She was just very scared that
David was going to reveal some information about her
or something. She -- she just was very scared. She
was crying. She was very upset.

Q  Now, you said that David was making threats.
Do you have independent knowledge of this, or is
this what Ms. Smith told you?

A   Just based on what Susan told me.

Q  And during that conversation, she -- and
obviously her demeanor had changed between lunch and
the time that you were talking, is that correct?
You said

A   She was crying and very upset.

Q  Mr. Findlay, I'm going to ask you now to relate

the substance of the particular conversation from
Ms. Smith to you and what that entailed.

A   She was very upset because she said that David
knew that -- some information. And I asked what
that information was. And she proceeded to tell me
that she had had an affair with a family member of
mine.

Q  Okay. I know this is extremely personal, Mr.
Findlay, and I don't want to delve into your
personal business, but could you relate specifically
to the jury what she told you?

A   She told me that she had had a sexual
relationship with my father.

Q  Okay. And what was your reaction to her at
that time?

A   Very confused. You know, very confused.

Q  What did -- what, if anything, did you say to
her at that time?

A   I told Susan that our friendship would not be
hurt by this information, that I would always be her
friend, that that would not change. That, you know,
we could develop a good friendship and it would
last, and -- but I also indicated to her that the
intimacy part of our relationship would have to stop
forever.

Q  Okay. So, again, you did not indicate to her
that you would no longer be friends with Susan?

A   No, sir.

Q  Did there come a time when that Particular
conversation was terminated? I mean, how did you
end up stopping and going back to work?

A   Well, we talked, and she was very upset. And I
sat out on the front with her and talked as long as
she needed. And we talked, and she just was very
upset and very upset about David and this whole --
everything that was going on in her life. And then
eventually we came to a point where we had to go
back to work.

Q  By the time that you came to go back to work,
had she calmed down any at that point?

A   A little. A little bit. She was still very
upset and crying.

Q  And did you -- did you offer to remain with her
while she was upset or --

A   Yeah, I -- we sat out there for, I don't know,
about twenty, thirty minutes, something longer than

A   regular ten minute break, you know. And we talked
as long as we needed to.

Q  And then you both went back to your separate
departments?

A   Yes, sir.

MR. POPE: Your Honor, I would move to indicate
conversation with Susan Smith and Tom Findlay on the
bench.

MR. BRUCK: No objection.

Q  Mr. Findlay, after that conversation, when was
the next time that you talked to Ms. Smith?

A   Susan came into my office somewhere around
:30, 4:45, and we talked in the photography studio.

Q  What was her demeanor at that time?

A   She was upset still, and she was very
apologetic. And she -- she said she didn't know if
she could handle things. She was just -- she was
nervous. She was crying. She was just -- she
didn't know if she could keep going. She was -- she
was very, very upset.

Q  Let me show you what's been marked as State's
Exhibit 8 for identification, and ask you to take a
look at that.

A   Yes, sir.

Q  And what is that?

A   That's my Auburn alumni sweat shirt.

Q  And Mr. Findlay, whose possession was this in
when you had your second conversation? Who had
this?

A       She did.

Q      Okay.

MR. BRUCK: No objection.

MR. POPE: Your Honor, we move State's Exhibit
.

THE COURT: State's Exhibit 8 into evidence
without objection.

Q  Mr. Findlay, in reference to State's Exhibit 8,
the sweat shirt, during the conversation, what, if
anything, did she do with your sweat shirt?

A   Well, when she came into the photo studio, we
closed the doors. She was crying. She was upset,
and she either took it off or she had it off, I'm
not sure. But she handed it to me and she said "I'm
going to give this to you because I may not see you
again," and she was very upset.

Q  When she said that you may not see her again,
what did you do in reference to the shirt?

A   Well, I thought -- and based on the way her
demeanor and everything that had taken place, that
she was going to attempt suicide. I was very -- I
was very concerned for her.

Q  You have got -- excuse me, go ahead.

A   I'm sorry. And she was handing me the sweat
shirt I think is the way of saying, you know, that
she might try to take her life, and that she wanted
me to have it back so that I would be sure to have
it. And I gave it to her. And I said "no." I said
"you take it. You take it home and you wash it, and
you bring it back to me," because I didn't want her
to do anything to herself. I was very concerned.

Q  And through -- this is through your -- as far
as the suicide aspect, this

is per your observations
of her and what she related to you, is that correct?

A   Yes, sir.

Q  And you felt like -- she was giving you the
shirt, you gave it back to her to, in essence, try
to prevent suicide? Is that what you are saying?

A   Yes.

Q  Okay.

A      I mean to indicate to her that I did not want
her to do anything like that. That I wanted her to
bring the sweat shirt back the next day.

Q  Did she, in fact, take the sweat shirt with her
when she left your premises?

A   Yes, she did.

Q  You said this particular conversation took
place in the area -- is it known as the studio
there?

A   Yes, sir.

MR. BRUCK: No objection.

MR. POPE: Your Honor, now indicate
conversation with Susan Smith in the studio on the
25th.

Q  Mr. Findlay, when you parted company that time,
what was her condition?

A   She was very upset, so we talked. And she had
been crying or was crying at that time.

Q  Okay. If you could, the best you can, relate
to the jury how long do you think that you talked
with her?

A   In the studio, ten, fifteen minutes, maybe
twenty.

Q  Okay. By the time that you let her leave your
presence --

A   Yes, sir.

Q  -- you expressed concern about suicide --

A   Yes, sir.

Q  -- had your feelings changed any? Had you
comforted her?

A   Well, I thought I did a little bit. I tried
to. I told her that I forgave her. You know, for
her to forgive herself, that we would be friends.
That our friendship would not be -- would not be
hurt, would not, you know, change that we would just --

we would keep on with a good friendship and develop
that. And I tried to comfort her. You know, I told
her that she could handle things. That if she
needed somebody to talk to, of course, I was there
for her. And tomorrow would be a different day,
things would look better. And so that -- I tried to
comfort her A

Q  At the time -- of course, now I guess it's
approaching five o'clock on that date?

A   Yes, sir.

Q  Did you feel comfortable enough to let her
leave your presence based on her demeanor?

A   I did.

Q  Okay.

A   Yes, sir.

Q  Mr. Findlay, normally what time does work end
there at Conso in the office? Does the office close
at a certain time?

A   Close?

Q  Yes, sir.

A   I don't know. I mean, people worked different
hours. Technically it's five o'clock, but we
usually work a little later.

Q  Okay. Did you have the opportunity to talk
again to Susan Smith after this second meeting?

A   Yes, sir.

Q  And could you relate that to the jury, please?

A   Sometime around 5:30, maybe quarter till six
she came back to the office with Susan Brown and her
children. And I was working late trying to get some
work caught up. And she knocked on the door. I was
the only one in my office. And I opened the door,
and there she was holding one of the children.
Susan Brown and the other child were in the
background kind of playing. And she proceeded to
tell me that she had made up the entire story about
her and my father.

Q  And that was the story that she had first
related to you on the park bench that day?

A   On the park bench about the affair, yes.

Q  Now when she's back at that time, what's her
demeanor now when she's talking?

A   She seemed okay. She seemed fine. She wasn't
crying. She seemed fine.

Q  Okay. And she related in reference that it was
not true about your father, is that correct?

A   Yes, sir.

Q  What was your reaction? What did you do at
that point?

A   I was totally confused. I was lust -- I was

very confused, didn't know what to think.

Q  Did she involve Susan Brown in the conversation
at all, or attempt to?

A   Yes, sir.

Q  What -- could you relate that to the jury?

A   She -- Susan tried to convince me that she had
made up the entire story. And in that attempt she
said that Susan Brown knew about this story, that
this -- you know, that this -- trying to get me to
believe this about my father, and that Susan Brown
was kind of in on it as a joke or something of that
nature to make -- I guess to give a little
credibility that she was now telling me the truth or
something.

Q  Did Susan Brown indicate that she was in on it
to you?

A   No. No.

Q  And the statement that was made to you with her
father -- I mean referenced your father the first
time, she recanted totally, is that correct?

A   Yes, sir.

Q  Okay.

MR. BRUCK: No objection.

MR. POPE: I move to indicate conversation at
the back door.

THE COURT: Yes, sir.

Q  Mr. Findlay, did she indicate -- in saying that
that story was no longer true, did she indicate to
you why she would have told you something like that
in the first place?

A   She just said she wanted to see how I felt
about her.

Q  And I think you related earlier that at this
point you are totally confused?

A   Yes, sir.

Q  Okay. How did you react towards Ms. Smith?
Did you treat her bad at this point during this
conversation?

A   No, I -- I -- I -- I was stern. I said "that's
fine, we will talk about it later." I didn't yell
or get angry with her. But, of course, her children
were there and Susan Brown, so I didn't feel like it
was appropriate to keep discussing it, and I had
work to do. So I said "fine, fine, we will talk
about it later."

Q  You did indicate that you believed her at that
time?

A   Yes, I said "I believe you."

Q  Did you ever indicate to her that you would no
longer be friends?

A   No, sir.

Q  After that afternoon at Conso, was that the
last time that you saw Michael and Alex Smith alive?

A   Yes, sir.

Q  And is that the last time that you saw Susan
Smith before the deaths of Michael and Alex?

A   Yes, sir.

Q  And when you saw her -- when you parted company
with her that time at the back door. what was her
demeanor at that point?

A   A little shaken, I guess. A little upset.

Q  She was upset?

A   A little bit. I mean --

Q  In comparison to the earlier incidents, how --
was she that upset?

A   Oh, no, no.

Q  I don't want to put words in your mouth.

A   She wasn't crying or anything. I think she
wanted to talk some more. And I was, you know, a
little short, and I had work to do, and kids were
there, and I said "fine, we will talk later. We
will talk later," and that's how it ended.

Q  Mr. Findlay, when was the next time that you
had contact with Ms. Smith?

A   The next morning.

Q  That would have been the morning after the boys
were reported missing, is that correct?

A   Yes, sir.

Q  October 26th. Can you relate to the jury how
that took place?

A   Yes. Susan Brown from my office had called. I
was on the road in transit up to Charlotte for a
business meeting. And she and I -- Susan Brown and
I talked on the phone, and Susan related to me --

MR. BRUCK: Excuse me, I think this calls for
hearsay and I would object to hearsay testimony.

THE COURT: Yes, sir, please don't tell us what
somebody else may have told you.

A   Yes, sir.

Q  Mr. Findlay, you -- as the judge said, you
can't tell us what Susan Brown told you. If you
would, tell the jury after talking with Susan Brown
what did you do?

A   I called Susan Smith, and it was a very short
conversation. And I called her parents home, the
number that Susan Brown gave me. And Susan Smith
apologized. Sounded very sorry. I took that as for
what she told me the day before, the joke that she
had played. And then I told her not to worry about
that, that -- you know, that was -- don't worry

about it. Let's concentrate on your children. You
know, I'm praying for your kids, and that was -- it
was a very short conversation.

MR. BRUCK: I have no objection to this
sticker.

MR. POPE: Your Honor, I will affix it on the
26th, a phone conversation from Susan Smith and Tom
Findlay.

Q  So you talked to her the day after Michael and
Alex were killed, and the first thing she did was
apologize to you?

A   Yes, sir.

Q  Did you have an opportunity or were you -- did
you receive contact from her later on in the week,
the nine days?

A   Not directly. Not to my recollection.

Q  Mr. Findlay, the incidents of the 25th, which
regarding the information about your father and then
recanting that information, prior to that, you had
already indicated to Ms. Smith that you were just
going to have a friendship relationship, is that
correct?

A   Correct.

Q  So the incidents of the 25th changed your
relationship?

MR. BRUCK Excuse me, these are leading
questions, Your Honor. We object.

THE COURT: Sustained. Don't lead your
witness.

Q  Did the incidents of the 25th, as they related
to the conversation that you had with Ms. Smith, did
that change your relationship status with her?

A   Only the intimacy part, but I assured her that
our friendship would continue.

Q  Mr. Findlay, at any time during your
relationship did you

indicate to Ms. Smith that you
would be with her if she would get rid of her
children?

A   No, sir.

Q  Thank you. Answer any questions that Mr. Bruck has.

MR. BRUCK: If it please the court, it's a
quarter after two. I'm prepared to go forward.
Perhaps we should make sure all our jurors are
comfortable. It may take a little while.

THE COURT: We can break part way through. Is
there any juror who needs a break at this time? If
so, would you raise your hand for me. You do? All
right. We will take a fifteen minute break.
Everyone please keep your seats while the jury

o

is going to the jury room. May I have order please.
May I have order please.
(The following takes place outside the presence
of the jury panel)

THE COURT: All right, we will start back at
:30.
(off the record)
(back on the record)
* * * * *

THE COURT: Prepared to go forward with your
cross examination?

MR. BRUCK: Yes, sir.

MR. POPE: If it please the court, Your Honor,
before the jury comes out, we have replaced the hot
tub party with friend at Findlay house and I will
replace it.

THE COURT: All right.
Yes, ma'am, if you could bring the jury back
for us, ma'am, please.
(The following takes place in the presence of
the jury panel)

THE COURT: All right, counsel,
cross-examination.

MR. BRUCK: Thank you.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. BRUCK:

Q  Good afternoon. How are you?

A   Okay.

Q  You told Mr. Pope that --

THE COURT: Now, before you begin, let me tell
you the jury has indicated that they have had
difficulty hearing in the past,

and I will tell you
specifically because you have a soft voice.

MR. BRUCK: Thank you.

THE COURT: Make sure you speak up. And ask
you to speak directly into that microphone.

A   Yes, sir.

Q  You told Mr. Pope that Susan had made comments
or a comment about wondering how her life might be
different if she had not had children when she was
so young, or if she had not gotten married and had
children and taken on these responsibilities at such a young age.

A   young age?

A   Yes, sir.

Q  Is there anything unusual about those comments?

A   No, sir. Conso has a lot of employees. A good
percentage of them are women. Some of those women
got married young, had children young. And so I
heard comments very similar to that from a variety
of women at Conso.

Q  Okay. A young single mother or a young woman

going through marital turmoil struck you as really
the most natural comment in the world, wasn't it?

A   It hit me, yes. I could understand it.

Q  And even now does it strike you -- do those
comments strike you as noteworthy or significant?

A   Significant, no, sir.

Q  Even now?

A   Even now.

Q  Now -- and I'm sorry, I'm going to have to ask
you, as Mr. Pope did, about some personal things.

A   I understand.

Q  I know -- I appreciate that.
You said that you had some friends over to your
house on I think the 15th, is that right, the
Saturday?

A   Yes, sir, that evening.

Q  Okay. And the next day you said that you had a
telephone conversation with Susan?

A   Yes, sir.

Q  And during the course of that telephone
conversation, did you tell Susan that you had had
sexual intercourse with another young woman who had
been present there that night?

A   Yes, I did.

Q  And that was in fact true?

A   Yes, sir.

Q  And that had occurred after Susan had gone
home?

A   Had left, yes, sir.

Q  Okay. So you told her that the next day?

A   She asked. I answered.

Q  Now, the letter from Susan that on October 17th
that Mr. Pope read to the jury, was that accompanied
by a card?

A   Yes, sir.

Q  Do you know where that card is now?

A   Yes, sir.

Q  Where is it?

A   Mr. Pope has it.

Q  Take a look, if you would, and I would ask you
if you can identify it?

A   This is the card that she gave me when she gave
me that letter. They were together.

MR. BRUCK: We offer this, Your Honor.

MR. POPE: No objection, Your Honor.
(Defendant's Exhibit No. 2 marked for
identification)

THE COURT- And that would be in evidence at
this time without objection.

Q  And this is a printed card? I'll let you look

at it.

A   Yes.

Q  It's a thank you card, is it not?

A   Yes, sir.

Q  And Susan, in that card, which you received
along with the letter, underlined some words?

A   Yes.

Q  And they were words saying thank you for being
these things?

A   Yes, sir.

Q  That's the contents. Could you tell me what it
was that she indicated by her underlining that she
was thanking you for being?

A   Friends. A good friend.

Q  Can you read the words --

A   Oh, sure.

Q  -- she underlined?

A   Gentle, sensitive, caring, understanding. And
then very best friend?

Q  Thank you. Now, of course, you have testified
that you are the son of the owner of Conso?

A   I'm sorry, say that again.

Q  You have testified that you are the son of Mr.
Cary Findlay, the owner --

A   Correct.

Q  -- of Conso?

A   Yes, sir.

Q  And Susan was, in effect, the assistant or the
secretary to an assistant? She was --

A   She was the assistant to the administrative
assistant for my father, yes, sir.

Q  Okay. Did you ever know -- did she ever
discuss with you any financial problems that she had
ever had?

A   No, sir, never.

Q  Did you ever know that she had any financial
problems?

A   No, sir.

Q  Did she ever ask you for money?

A   Never. No, sir.

Q  Did she ever ask you for a loan?

A   No, sir.

Q  Did the subject ever come up?

A   No, sir.

Q  You described an incident that ended the first
phase of your romantic -- or I should say intimate
relationship in March or so of 1994?

A   Yes, sir.

Q  And I believe you said that you were talking on
the phone with Susan?

A   Susan called me. And, yes, we were talking on
the phone.

Q  Talking on the phone.
Now, during this time David and Susan were not
living together, is that correct?

A   That was my understanding.

Q  They were separated?

A   They were separated.

Q  Not legally separated, but separated in fact?
They were living apart?

A   I did not know to what extent, but I knew that
they were separated.

Q  And living apart?

A   And living apart, right. Separated.

Q  And you testified that David jumped out of the
closet where he had been hiding?

A   That's what Susan told me. The next day --
what I had heard is an "oh, my God," and "David." I
heard some yelling, and then David got on the phone.
And the next day and Susan told me that he had been
hiding in the closet and he had jumped out at one
point in time. And that's when he got on the phone
with me and told me that not to talk with his wife
you son-of-a-bitch. And something about, you know,
"I'm going to get you. You better watch your back,

I'm going to get you."

Q  "I'm going to get you, you better watch your
back?"

A   Yes, sir.

Q  Do you own a gun?

A   Yes, I do.

Q  A handgun, a pistol?

A   Yes, sir.

Q  And what, if anything, did you do with that
pistol as a result of that conversation with David
Smith?

A   Well, I took David's threats very seriously.
So that evening -- because the property that I live
on is on thirteen acres. It's not many houses
around. So I felt threatened. I felt scared, and I
slept with the gun close by.

Q  Okay. Under your pillow?

A   I'm sorry?

Q  Under your pillow, is that what you told me?

A   Yes, sir.

Q  You came to know Susan fairly well?

A   Yes, sir.

Q  Did you find her to be a controlling person?

A   Susan? No, sir, not at all.

Q  Did you find her to be a manipulative person?


A   No, sir.

Q  Did you find her to be a selfish person?

A   Never.

Q  Never?

A   No, not -- the relationship that I had with
her, she never acted that way.

Q  Well, did you see her treat other people that
way during --

A   Selfishly?

Q  Yes.

A   No, sir, never.

Q  How would you describe her?

A   Susan Smith? The Susan that I know?

Q  That's all I can ask you to describe.

A   Right. Very caring. Very loving. A good
friend to everyone, not just me. One of those
people that would do about anything for a friend.
You know, she was just a very understanding,
easygoing, very pleasant. Everybody liked her, you
know. She was just one of those people that, you
know, everybody liked, because she was very pleasant
and easy to get along with, just very
nonconfrontational. Very upbeat. You know, always
tried to look on the bright side of things.

Q  Is it always presented -- almost always

presented a happy face to the world?

A   Yes.

Q  Was she negative -- you related that she told
you over the course of your relationship about
problems with David. And, of course, you have
described one, where he apparently has secreted
himself in the house and jumps out when she doesn't
know he's there.
When she would talk about David, did she do it
in a negative or a bitter or an angry way?

A   No, sir.

Q  How did she talk about him?

A   Just matter-of-factly. You know, Susan -- the
Susan that I knew was not a vindictive person.

Q  Not a vindictive person?

A   No. I mean, she never cussed his name or said
I'm going to get him or anything. She was very, you
know, just matter-of-fact, you know. It was just --
she did not express any kind of anger towards David,
not to me.

Q  Did she ever express hurt or fear or --

A   Fear.

Q  Yes.

A   You know, stuff that she told me that she was
scared of David. According to her, she was scared

of him. He was threatening to her.

Q  Now, Mr. Pope read to the jury the letter
you sent to Susan on October the 18th?

A   Yes, sir.

Q  And now -- and, of course, the day before, if
I'm not mistaken, you had received that
her?

A   Yes, sir.

Q  Which acknowledges that your relationship is
likely to remain simply a friendship?

A   Yes, sir.

Q  That's how you understood that letter?

A   Her letter?

Q  Her letter to you.

A   Her letter to me?

Q  Yes.

A   Yeah, just that we would always be friends.

Q  And what was the reason for sending her a
letter back on October the 18th?

A   Well. kind of like what was in letter. She was
always the one that was, you know, doing the
friendship stuff. I mean, she was, you know, a very
giving person. I mean, she was like that with other
people. I mean, she was a very friendly nice
person, doing nice things. And that letter was

typical for the nice things that she did. I just
felt like maybe I should do something nice, you
know, and put a little bit in of friendship.

Q  So your purpose in writing her the letter back
on October 18th was to do something nice for her?

A   Yes, sir.

Q  And it was intended to be supportive and to
build up things about her that you admired and
thought she should feel better about herself?

A   Yes, sir.

Q  And at the same time the letter was intended,
was it not, to sort of restate what both of you have
known for quite -- for awhile about --

A   Define our relationship.

Q  About --

A   Yes, sir.

Q  About the limits of the relationship?

A   Yes, sir.

Q  So did the letter that Susan received from you
on October 18th tell her anything that she didn't
already know --

A   No, sir.

Q  About your relationship?

A   About -- no, sir.

Q  Or about what was likely to happen in the

future?

A   Anything new?

Q  Right, anything new.

A   I don't think so, no, sir.

Q  All right. So even before October 18th, you
had been very clear with her, hadn't you?

A   Yes, sir.

Q  You had a physical intimacy?

A   Yes, sir.

Q  But all the time it had been made clear that
your relationship was not going to lead to marriage?

A   Correct.

Q  And, in fact, it was not even going to lead to

A   permanent commitment?

A   Correct.

Q  But you were not interested in a permanent
commitment with anybody at that time of your life?

A   That is correct.

Q  Not with women who had children?

A   That's correct.

Q  Not with women who did not have children?

A   At that point --

Q  At that point.

A   -- no, I was not seeking any relationship with
anyone.

Q  And there were a number of reasons why you felt
that Susan and you were not fated to be a couple?

A   Yes, sir.

Q  And those were reasons that had nothing to do
with children?

A   Yes, sir.

Q  And you and Susan had talked about that many
times?

A   Yes, sir.

Q  Had you not?

A   Yes, sir.

Q  So that based on what you had told her, neither
Susan nor anyone else would have thought that but
for her children you could be together?

A   No.

Q  Or that there was any hope of your being
together permanently --

A   Permanently, no, sir.

Q  -- or in a long term relationship?

A   No, sir.

Q  And Susan received that letter and called you
and said that that was the sweetest letter she had
ever received?

A   That's what she said.

Q  Okay. And, in fact -- now, was there ever a

time when she expressed any anger about that letter?

A   No, sir.

Q  Was there -- or about -- well --
In fact, y'all went out on a date after she
received that letter from you?

A   Yes, sir.

Q  And went to the movies?

A   Yes, sir.

Q  And then you took an out-of-town trip?

A   Yes, sir.

Q  And came back to town over the weekend?

A   Yes, sir.

Q  And Susan called you on the phone on Sunday,
October the 22nd?

A   That evening, yes, sir.

Q  And she was extremely upset?

A   Yes, sir.

Q  As upset as you had ever heard her?

A   Yes, sir.

Q  Up to that time?

A   Up to that point.

Q  And she was upset because she was afraid of
what David was going to do?

A   That's what she said.

Q  And explain to me as well as you can recall as

exactly what she told you about what it was that had
her so upset.

A   She was very upset. She called me. She was
either crying or on the verge of it. She said that --
she said that she had spoken or saw David that
weekend, David Smith, and that he had made some
threats towards her, that he had some information.
He indicated or she got the impression that he was
having her followed. She felt like her phones were
tapped.

Q  She thought that David was having her followed?

A   She felt pretty sure of it.

Q  And she felt or she believed or she suspected
that David had her phones tapped?

A   Very much so, yes, sir.

Q  And that he was getting information about her
and she couldn't figure out where it was coming
from?

A   Correct.

Q  And did she tell you what the nature of the
information was that he had?

A   She did. She told me that David knew about a
relationship that she had had and that he was going
to make it public.

Q  And the relationship involved a married man?

A   Yes.

Q  Did she tell that you?

A   Yes.

Q  And he was going to make it public?

A   Yes, sir.

Q  And she was very, very frightened of that?

A   Yes, sir.

Q  And felt apparently very fearful that he was
going to carry out his threat to make it public?

A   Yes, sir.

Q  And you pressed him -- you pressed Susan during
that phone call for more of an explanation?

A   Well, she led into it, and she was scared to
tell me. I mean, I was like, "you know, come here,
talk to me." She said "no, no, I think David has
had my phones tapped. He just knows things, and I
don't know how he knows this."
And I assured her or I felt pretty sure that
David had not tapped her phone. So after I did
convince her of that, she proceeded to tell me about
the relationship.

Q  Okay. And would you tell me what it was that
she at that point told you about?

A   At that point she told me that she had had a
relationship with her stepfather.

Q  With her own stepfather?

A   Yes, sir.

Q  Beverly Russell?

A   Yes, sir.

Q  And did it appear to you that that was the
information that David was going to make public?

A   That's what she indicated.

Q  Or what you inferred?

A   I'm sorry?

Q  Or else that was what you inferred from the
contents?

A   That, and the hot tub incident.

Q  Uh-huh. This was a long conversation?

A   I -- I don't remember. Probably. When we
would start talking and we got into serious stuff
like that, we would talk for maybe forty-five
minutes or so.

Q  Forty-five minutes?

A   I'm guessing.

Q  In that neighborhood. So a pretty long phone
call?

A   I'm sorry?

Q  Pretty long phone call?

A   Yes, sir.

Q  Were you able to comfort her or soothe her or

calm her down at all during the course of this phone
call?

A   I tried. I tried to.

Q  Bear with me for just a minute.
The following day, she came in the evening for

A   short while to the bar, Hickory Nuts?

A   Yes, sir.

Q  Monday night?

A   Yes.

Q  And you were there with a group of friends
Conso watching Melrose Place?

from

A   Yes, sir.

Q  And she sat with you for a short while?

A   I'm not sure. She was the first to leave, but
I'm not sure how long she stayed.

Q  She was -- everyone was there when she got
there?

A   Yes.

Q  And then she was the first to leave?

A   Yes.

Q  So she came late and left early, would that be

A   fair statement?

A   That's correct.

Q  But you noticed no -- there was no problem with
her that was visible?

A   No. I mean, she wasn't crying or anything.

Q  Right. And she didn't express any jealousy or
any upset about anything going on there at the bar?

A   No. No, sir.

Q  It was just an ordinary evening watching
Melrose Place with some friends?

A   Yes, sir.

Q  And then the following day I think you related
three conversations plus some testimony about this
sweat shirt?

A   Yes, sir.

Q  And this sweat shirt left your drafting board
when Susan Brown, a co-worker at Conso, borrowed it?

A   Correct.

Q  Susan Smith didn't go and get this sweat shirt
from you?

A  Correct.

Q  And Susan Brown and Susan Smith work in
somewhat different parts of the front office?

A  Yes, sir.

Q  And Susan Brown complained of being cold, and
you said "here, wear this?"

A  Yes.

Q  And then did you ever -- were you present when
Susan Smith later acquired the sweat shirt? In

o

other words, were you there when she took it?

A  No, sir.

Q  So somehow it got from Susan Brown to Susan
Smith, but you didn't give it to Susan Smith?

A  Correct.

Q  And she didn't ask you for it?

A  She did not.

Q  Let me ask you about, if you don't mind -- if
you do, I think I have to ask you anyway, a little
bit about the intimate relationship that you had
with Susan. I need to know a little bit more about
what you and she were like together.

A  Yes.

Q  Was she very aggressive?

A  Aggressive?

Q  Yes.

A  No, sir. Not overly aggressive.

Q  In ordinary parlance, was she sexually
aggressive in the sense of sex crazy or --

A  No, no.

Q  At all? I mean --

A  No.

Q  -- would you describe her as that sort of --

A  No.

Q  -- very, very driven sexually?

A  No way. The pleasure that -- the pleasure that
Susan or -- what Susan got from sex wasn't because
of physical pleasure.

Q  And that's what I want to ask you about. What
was it that she

A  It was the being close. It was the feeling
needed, feeling loved part.

Q  Cuddling, the holding?

A  Yeah. I mean that was more important to her
than the actual act.

Q  Uh-huh. She liked to be held?

A  Yes.

Q  Okay.

MR. POPE: Your Honor, at this point I have
tried not to object. I'm going to object on
relevance. This is the guilt phase of the trial,
and we have gone so far afield on their sexual
relationship now, and whether she liked to be held,
I don't think it's relevant at this point.

THE COURT: Overruled.

Q  And even though you -- it was -- you testified
that you had made very clear to her, very clear to
her, over a long period of time that your
relationship was not going to go beyond where it
was, which was a friendship with physical intimacy,

she still liked to be held and comforted?

A  Yes.

Q  By you?

A  Yes.

Q  And that was something that was important to
her?

A  Yes.
O And when in this -- when she refers in this
letter that she sent you on 10-17 about "friendship
was more important than sex," when she's referring
to sex, I mean, we all know what it means, but your
understanding of what she meant by that is what you
have just described?

A  Correct.

Q  All right. Let's go back to -- I have asked
you about the sweat shirt on the 25th. And you have
described for Mr. Pope the first conversation that
you had at about 3:15 out on the picnic benches?

A  About 2:30, three o'clock.

Q  I'm sorry, about 2:30 or close to three?

A  Yes, somewhere around there.

Q  You had a lot of work to do that day?

A  Yes.

Q  It was a busy day, and you had a lot of
responsibilities, and time was passing, and you
needed to get back to work?

A  Always.

Q  Always?

A  Well, that's who I work for, yes, sir.

Q  But you talked for as long as seemed to be
needed?

A  Yes.

Q  And then you had the second conversation close
to five at the studio?

A  Yes, sir.

Q  Okay. And that was the discussion in which you
had said to Mr. Pope that it seemed very clear to
you that she was suicidal, or appeared to be?

A  Yes, sir.

Q  And you were very concerned about her?

A  Yes, I was.

Q  At some point -- and it was during that part of
your conversation that she tried to give you back
the sweat shirt in what seemed like a very
portentous kind of way, a solemn sort of way/ like a

final farewell ?

A  That's the way I took it.

Q  That's the way that you took it?

A  Yes, sir.

Q  And that's the way you responded to it?

A  Yes, sir.

Q  Do you remember her asking you, I guess maybe
just before that, if you would hold her, or hug her?
Think hard about this now. And you are saying "I
really don't want to touch you right now," you were
still reeling from --

A  I don't remember that.

Q  You don't remember that?

A  No, sir.

Q  Then the last conversation occurred at the
door?

A  Yes.

Q  And she had Alex on her hip?

A  Yes, sir.

Q  And Michael was with Susan Brown, and Susan
Brown was holding his hand --

A  Yes, sir.

Q  -- or keeping an eye on him?

A  Yes, sir.

Q  Did Alex appear to be okay?

A  Yes, sir.

Q  Everything was appropriate as far as the
children?

A  I'm sorry?

Q  The children appeared to being cared for

appropriately? They weren't upset?

A  Yes.

Q  And she was being appropriate with them?

A  Yes, sir.

Q  Okay. But you were quite -- I mean, at that
point this was the third of these very unusual and
strange accountings that you had with her?

A  Yes, sir.

Q  And it was just getting weirder and weirder,
wasn't it?

A  Yes.

Q  And you had work to do?

A  Yes, sir.

Q  And the kids were there, and Susan Brown was
there?

A  Yes, sir.

Q  And you did not want to be having this
conversation at all, did you?

A  I wanted to continue it later, yes, sir.

Q  Which is to say you wanted it to be over then?

A  That would be accurate.

Q  And she had her foot in the door? Do you
remember that?

A  She was in the door.

Q  She was standing in the doorway sort of to keep

the door open?

A  Well, there was no keeping the door. It
doesn't close automatically. The door -- she was
there with one of the children.

Q  And however you did it, it was unmistakable to
her that you wanted this conversation to end
immediately and you didn't want to keep talking to
her?

A  Yes, sir.

Q  You wanted her to leave, you to go back to work
and you deal with it later?

A  Correct.

Q  And that, if I'm not mistaken, was the last
time that you have seen Susan until today?

A  No, I saw her at the courthouse the day after.

Q  Okay. Oh, that's right, there was -- okay.
Well, just to nod and say hello?

A  That's it.

Q  You were passing --

A  Just passing.

Q  Just passing in the hallway. There was no
conversation spoken?

A  None.

Q  So this was the last conversation that you had
with her, ever?

A  That's correct.

Q  Now, the next thing that happened is that --
well, let's see. Later that night before you heard
this report of something happening to her children,
you commented to some friends that Susan was acting
suicidal, didn't You?

A  Correct.

Q  At Hickory Nuts? Everybody gathered there, as
was often happened after work?

A  Correct.

Q  And you told -- Benji Brown is the one?

A  That's correct.

Q  And some other people that Susan had been
acting -- had seemed suicidal to you that night?

A  That's correct.

Q  Was acting very strangely, and it was worrisome
to you?

A  I was worried, and I expressed that to them,
yes.

Q  And that would have been somewhere around
seven, 7:30 that evening?

A  No, sir, that would have been somewhere around
:30 that evening.

Q  9:30. But before you had heard anything --

A  Yes, sir.

Q  -- that anything had happened.
And then the following day you called -- after
getting a call from Susan Brown, you said, you
called Susan on your car phone?

A  Yes, sir.

Q  And you had a very brief conversation?

A  Yes, sir.

Q  And the first thing that she said to you was
that she was sorry?

A  Correct.

Q  And you understood that to mean that she was
apologizing for what she had told you about your
father?

A  That's correct.

Q  Or for that situation, or for whatever, but she
was referring to that?

A  To that, yes, sir.

Q  And you told her, "well, let's worry about your
kids?"

A  I'm sorry?

Q  You told her not to be worried about that?

A  Correct.

Q  And expressed concern about her children?

A  About the children, yes, sir.

Q  Okay. Did she ask you at that time to come

over?

A  At that time, no, sir.

Q  Did she ask you to please call again?

A  No, sir, I don't think so.

Q  Did she make any request of you at all?

A  No, sir.

Q  Did she say "Tom, I'm going to need you through
this?"

A  No, sir.

Q  "I need your help. I want to see you?"

A  No, sir.

Q  Did she say, "Tom, do you mind if I call you
during this?"

A  No, sir.

Q  Did she say "I need someone to lean on?"

A  No, sir.

Q  Nothing like that?

A  Not that I remember, no, sir.

Q  Okay. And the whole conversation lasted
between sixty seconds and two minutes?

A  More closer to sixty seconds, probably.

Q  Closer to sixty seconds?

A  It's very brief.

Q  It's a minute, or a little bit more?

A  That's fair.

o

Q  Did she do anything to try to keep you on the
phone?

A  No, sir.

Q  Okay. And other than nodding at each other in
the hallway --
Well, let me ask you this. That was -- where
is our chart? Can you see the dates on this
where you are sitting? Turn it this way.

A  I can see them.

Q  So this sticker with the red dot on it,
"phone conversation Susan Smith, Tom Findlay.

from

it says

A  Yes, sir.

Q  Now, I don't have a sticker machine, but you
tell me if there was another phone conversation on
the 27th between you and Susan? Did she call you?

A  Not that I recall, no, sir.

Q  Did she send you a letter?

A  Send me a letter?

Q  Did you receive a letter from Susan on the
27th?

A  I don't think so.

Q  You don't think so?

A  No, sir.

Q  Well, what about the 28th? A phone call?

A  Phone call from Susan? I don't think so.

Q  You don't think so?

A  No, sir.

Q  Okay.

A  I don't remember.

Q  And you certainly would remember if she would
have called you?

A  I think so.

Q  And you didn't get any letters from her either?

A  From Susan? Not from Susan Smith.

Q  Okay. And on the 29th, Saturday, did you get a --
did Susan Smith call you?

A  On Saturday? No, I don't think so.

Q  I don't mean to suggest my questions.

A  No, sir, I don't think so.

Q  Did she send you a letter?

A  No, sir.

Q  Well, we are up to Sunday, the 30th, and the

31st and the 1st?

A  No, sir.

Q  Any of those three days?

A  No, sir.

Q  And November 2nd?

A  No, sir.

Q  And November 3rd?

A  No, sir.

Q  No letters?

A  (shaking head no)

Q  No phone call?

A  Not that I recall, no.

Q  Did you call her again?

A  No, sir.

Q  You never heard from her during all of these
days; from the 26th - that sixty second phone call
where she apologized - after that, until November
rd?

A  Not directly, no, sir.

Q  You have described some things about Susan, and
you feel like you knew her fairly well?

A  Yes, sir.

Q  Did you ever see her to reveal any racial
prejudice?

A  Racial? No, sir, not at all.

Q  Not at all?

A  No.

Q  No sign of that that she ever manifested to
you?

A  No, sir. I'm sorry?

Q  Of racial prejudice, of bias?

A  No.

Q  And specifically a prejudice against black

people?

A  None, never.

Q  Never.
Now, you said that you only saw her children
twice?

A  Yes, sir.

Q  Tell me, though, if you know how she appeared
to feel about her children.

A  Well, I mean, when we talked on the phone
could hear Michael and Alex in the background, and
she attended to them as we carried on a
conversation. She always had good things to say. I
mean, she loved them.

Q  She loved her children?

A  Yes.

Q  Did she talk to you about them?

A  She said they were her world.

Q  They were her world?

A  And that's what she told me.

Q  Did they seem to be the mos1 important thing in
her life?

A  Yes, sir.

Q  Bear with me just a moment. I think I need to
confer with co-counsel. I think we are just about
done.

(off the record)

(back on the record)

Q  Ms. Clark has pointed out a couple of other
things --

A  Yes.

Q  -- that I don't know that we have covered.
On Tuesday, when Susan told you that she had
had a sexual relationship with your father -

A  Yes, sir.

Q  -- she also told you, did she not, that David
knew about that?

A  Yes, sir.

Q  David, her husband, knew about that?

A  Knew about that, yes, sir.

Q  And that she was very, very afraid that he was
going to make that public?

A  Correct.

Q  And that that would hurt many, many people?

A  Correct.

Q  And that had her extremely upset?

A  That was part of it, yes, sir.

Q  Okay. And, of course, Susan did work in your
father's -- very close to your father's office?

A  Proximity, yes, sir.

Q  And really more or less directly for him? That

is to say, she worked for his administrative
assistant?

A  Who worked for him. I mean, she was the
assistant to the assistant.

Q  Right. So there were -- there was Sandra
Williams now?

A  That's his administrative assistant, correct.

Q  Right. Who was sort of your father's -- not
sort of, but who was and is your father's
administrative assistant?

A  Yes, sir.

Q  And Susan was her assistant.'

A  That's correct.

Q  And the two of them sort of ran his -- or were
responsible for his inner office'

A  That's correct.

Q  His actual -- his actual day-to-day working?

A  Yes, sir.

Q  Okay. You have described your impressions of
Susan's suicidality; that is, the indications that
suggested to you that she was at risk for killing
herself that Tuesday afternoon, October 25th.
And in that connection I would like to ask you
whether you received a phone call from Sharon O'Dell
that night to tell you about the disappearance of

her children? And could you describe that phone
call and your reaction to it?

A  Yes, sir. That evening, Tuesday, when I got
home from Hickory Nuts, I don't know what time. It
was around ten, maybe. But the phone rang, and it
was Sharon O'Dell, who was the personnel director
for Conso Products. And the first thing she said to
me is "have you heard about Susan Smith?" And my
first reaction was oh, my God, she's killed herself.
And I was oh, no, I thought she had taken her life.
And then Sharon proceeded to tell me about the
children missing.

Q  But the reason you thought when you heard the
words "have you heard about Susan Smith," that she
had killed herself was what you had observed of her
condition and her behavior earlier that evening,
that afternoon?

A      That's correct.

Q      Bear with me just one more moment.
(off the record)
(back on the record)

MR. BRUCK: Mr. Findlay, that's all I have.

THE COURT: Redirect, counselor?

MR. POPE: If it please the court, Your Honor,
just A few questions.

REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. POPE:

Q  Mr. Findlay, you had related that when you got
the call that evening, you were concerned that Susan
Smith may have killed herself, is that correct?

A  Yes, sir.

Q  And you said that was based on all the things
that you have related previously?

A  Yes, sir.

Q  Mr. Findlay, I think you have indicated you
carried for Susan Smith?

A  Yes, I did.

Q  Okay. When she left your presence that last
time that evening, if you felt she was going to kill
herself, did you not feel some obligation to stop
her or to remain with her, anything of that nature?

A  Yes. I mean, I don't have a lot of experience
with that. It was a great concern to me. But after
our last conversation, I did not feel the immediate
threat so overwhelming that I felt like that I had
to be with her or that someone needed to be with
her.

Q  So the second conversation which, was in the
studio, was more heightened than the last
conversation would be?

A  More heightened? What do you mean?

Q  When I say that,

as with regards to suicide,
that the conversation -- that's when you had the
sweat shirt?

A  That's correct. She handed me the sweat shirt.

Q  So after that, the back door conversation was --
and I don't want to put words in your mouth --

A  That's okay.

Q  -- lessened --

A  Yes.

Q  -- suicidally?

A  That's correct.

Q  Mr. Findlay, again, I want to ask you, after

MR. Bruck went through the incidents and the
upsetness of -- that you had -- that Susan Smith had
with you, or through your conversations that date of
the 25th?

A  Yes, sir.

Q  What would the disclosures l-hat she was
concerned about? I just want to make clear. I'm
not trying to embarrass you, but --

A  That's fine.

Q  Is it the disclosure of your father?

A  She was very upset because of David knowing the
about the hot tub
with Bev Russell,

incident, about the relationship

and also the relationship with my

father.

Q  And so it was all three things, basically?

A  It was -- yes, sir.

Q  Okay. Did she give you any indication -- of
course, we know when the hot tub was, but as far as
your stepfather -- I mean, her stepfather or your
father, did she give any indication of when these
relationships were going on?

A  Let's see. A little, but she went into a

little bit of that.

Q  Okay.

A  She didn't give me like time frames. But, I
mean, she gave me a little indication as to when
those relationships took place.

Q  Okay. Were they in close proximity to that
time when she was revealing them to you?

A  They were months before in my father's case.
And then for Mr. Russell. she indicated that was
awhile back.

Q  Thank you. Okay. You had also indicated to

MR. Bruck a number of things concerning David. And
I think you have made it pretty clear the things
that you know, with the exception of the phone
conversation that you had back in March, come from
what Ms. Smith told you?

o

A  That's correct.

Q  Okay. Likewise, the incident as far as your
father, which she later told you she was just
testing you --

A  Right.

Q  -- just comes from her, is that correct?

A  That's correct.

Q  Mr. Bruck had gone through all the days
following the death of Michael and Alex, the nine
days?

A  Yes, sir.

Q  And he had asked you about Susan writing you a
letter or calling you, and you said that she had
not, is that --

A  That's correct.

Q  And he asked about contact, and you said not
directly?

A  That's correct.

Q  What does that mean?

0 A    That means ---

MR. BRUCK: Objection if this calls for
hearsay, Your Honor. I did not invite any hearsay
by the response. And I don't think hearsay
testimony should be admitted, and I object to it. I
wish to be heard

MR. POPE: Your Honor, I don't think his answer
will require hearsay.

THE COURT: Well, let's take this matter up
outside the jury's presence then.
Ladies and gentlemen, I'm going to ask you to
go to the jury room for me for a moment. I
anticipate we will just be a few minutes. Please
don't discuss this matter.
(The following takes place outside the presence
of the jury panel)

THE COURT: All right, counsel, go ahead.

Q  Mr. Findlay, Mr. Bruck had asked you if you
were contacted in any way by Susan Smith, and you
stated not directly?

A  Correct.

Q  Could you explain to the court your answer,
please?

A  A couple of times, once or twice during those
days she had asked Leslie Anderson, another worker,

A  co-worker, to find out how I was doing and
indicated that she would like for me to come by and
see her, if possible.

Q  Okay. And that was during the nine days?

A  Yes, sir.

THE COURT: Do you wish to be heard?

MR. POPE: That would be the extent of it, Your
Honor.

THE COURT: Basically what this witness just
said was that someone else told her what Susan Smith
had asked her to do. That would be hearsay.

MR. POPE: The statement of it, but that she
was contacted -- that he was contacted. Mr. Bruck
has opened the door or asked that --

THE COURT: Yeah but --

MR. POPE: I'm talking about as to the
directly, I'm just asking him to explain his answer.
He does not have to say what was said, but that she
was contacted.

THE COURT: Well, but that would be hearsay
that she was contacted, but this with this witness
saying what someone else said occurred to her. So
that would be hearsay. I would sustain it.

MR. BRUCK: Thank you.

MR. POPE: Thank you.

THE COURT: If you would bring me the jury.
(The following takes place in the presence of
the jury panel)

THE COURT: All right. Then I sustain that
objection, counsel. You may continue.

Q  Mr. Findlay, Mr. Bruck asked you about your and

Ms. Smith's relationship?

A  Yes, sir.

Q  You said she was always doing the friendship
stuff? She was making the efforts?

A  Correct.

Q  Did it appear to you that she wanted your
relationship to continue and for it to be more than
it was? Did she indicate that to you?

A  A little bit, yes, sir.

Q  Could you elaborate? When you say a little
bit, what --

A  Well, I mean I could tell that she cared for
me. I think -- I know she thought a lot of me, and
which was very flattering. And, you know, she never
said "this is what I want," but :r -- you know, I
just got the feeling that maybe things developed
further into a long lasting relationship, that she
would be pleased.

Q  Okay. Mr. Bruck had asked you about her
concern for Michael and Alex?

A  Yes, sir.

Q  The times that you spent with her, were Michael
and Alex present then?

A  No, sir.

Q  Do you know where they were?

A      No, sir.

MR. POPE: That would be all. Thank you.

THE COURT: All right, sir, you may come down.

MR. BRUCK: I have one question, Your Honor.

THE COURT: All right, counselor, I'll allow
it.
RECROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. BRUCK:

Q  Mr. Pope asked you about Susan's statements
about your father. Did you ever ask your father
about what Susan had said about her?

A  I'm sorry?

Q  Did you ever ask your father about what Susan
had said about her?

A  Did I ask him if it was true?

Q  Yes.

A  No, sir.

THE COURT: Don't tell us if you did, what he
said.

A       No, sir.

Q       You never asked?

A       No, sir.

MR. BRUCK: That's all I have. Thank you.

THE COURT: Anything on redirect?

MR. POPE: No, sir. I ask this witness be

excused.

THE COURT: Any reason why this witness cannot
be excused at this time?

MR. BRUCK: Not at this time, Your Honor.

THE COURT: All right, sir. Thank you. You
may come down.

(END OF REQUESTED TRANSCRIPT OF RECORD)